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premium_steve
♡ 19 ( +1 | -1 )
what's the absolute worst first move? i was trying to think what it might be, and i decided maybe f3 would be pretty bad for white to play. what do you guys think? is white at a disadvantage if he plays a move like this?
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brobishkin
♡ 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Hmmm... There are no absolutes in chess... But I think anything besides (e4) (d4) (c4) and (Nf3) would be inferior...
Bro...
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triangulator
♡ 8 ( +1 | -1 )
f3 is playable it has been played by masters. I would think Nh3 or Na3 would be pretty bad
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caldazar
♡ 52 ( +1 | -1 )
I've had an opponent play 1. Nh3 against me in a tournament game; it's not all bad. True, it's not actually good either, but it's not ALL bad. The point is that after 1.Nh3 d5 2. g3 e5 3. Bg2, White intends to enter into a King's Indian setup where he doesn't have to toss his knight (which would normally be on f3) somewhere in order to play f4, after which he can drop the h3-knight back to f2. Kind of weird, and it doesn't really work all that well, but at least White doesn't have to worry about the latest wrinkle in the Sicilian Najdorf.
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atrifix
♡ 32 ( +1 | -1 )
AFAIK Current theory regards 1. g4 to be the worst move on the board, Black obtaining a slight advantage by means of 1... e5 2. Bg2 h5 3. gxh5 Qg5 4. Bf3 Qh4(=+, last I knew). All other first moves allow Black to equalize, but not more. Of course, their practical chances vary a great deal (more games are won by 1. g4 than by 1. Na3, for example).
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lordoftherings
♡ 4 ( +1 | -1 )
i think 1.f3 what is the idea of the move?? to help 2.e4 ??
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blindio
♡ 25 ( +1 | -1 )
A pawn move . . . . . .rather than a Knight, would be worse - because a pawn structure flaw is for keeps. 1. f3 is an inferior way of supporting a later central advance and weakens the pawn structure in a detrimental fashion in the event of a later 0-0. With g4 you can at least fianchetto.
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gunnarsamuelsson
♡ 36 ( +1 | -1 )
f3 Is the worst move I would say..for whats its worth.Any master using it would surely use it just because of that fact, not because it was playable.
Distinction: f3 is not playable but bad, any other word for it would undermine chess terminology.
Ive heard f3 is called the "fried fox" or something, I would say good players use it only because its interesting to see if they can manage anyway.
gunnarsamuelsson
♡ 33 ( +1 | -1 )
A computer test of 1.f3. Chessmaster vs Chessmaster(8000) time 15 min
result:draw
Chessmaster vs Morphy (chessmaster personality considering positional factors highly, weaker then the cm personality in most positions) time 15 min
result: 0-1 !!
I know this test can be criticized and hardly represent refined scientific method, but anyway a nice study!
keiserpaul
♡ 15 ( +1 | -1 )
atrifix Playing 2.Bg2 after 1.g4 e5 is not the best move. Grobs' recommendation was 2.d3 (seeking K-side advantage) and Basman usually plays 2.h3. (he also plays h3 after 1. .. d5)
keiserpaul
♡ 19 ( +1 | -1 )
lordoftherings The original idea of 1.f3 was a transposition to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit : 1.f3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and 4.e4 or 1.f3 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 exf 4.Nxf3. Another idea is in conjunction with Nh3-f2. I have tried this a few times, but this set-up takes too much time : 1.f3 d5 2.g3 e5 3.Nh3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.Nf2 Nf6 6.0-0
keiserpaul
♡ 5 ( +1 | -1 )
brobishkin Could you give me one reason why moves as 1.Nc3 or 1.g3 are inferior ?
brobishkin
♡ 44 ( +1 | -1 )
Keiser... Nc3 and g3 are acceptable but give away the initiative to black... But I will say that those two moves are just slightly inferior to the other opening move I suggested... After Nc3 black can answer with d5 due to the fact that it's covered by the black Queen... After g3 with a white fiancetto kindside coming up, it hands black an extra move for center domination... That was the only reason I didn't mention those two moves (Nc3 and g3)...
Bro...
atrifix
♡ 70 ( +1 | -1 )
Well I had not seen 2. d3 mentioned before (although 2... d5 would seem to be the natural response). 2. h3, to my understanding, leads to the same type of position after 2... h5.
As for Nc3, f3 and g3; Nc3 tends not to offer as many practical chances as normal moves, but White can at least contest the initiative after, for example, 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4. 1. f3 tends to not put up a fight for the initiative (and consequently has even less practical results), but White can still probably equalize. 1. g3, however, is quite powerful in the hands of a prepared opponent. The idea is not so much as to stay in Benko System or otherwise unique territory, but simply to obtain a favorable transposition to the KID or KIA, etc. Consequently this opening offers White quite a few practical chances if he is prepared, but it's hardly good as a weapon in itself.
pureredwhiteblu
♡ 6 ( +1 | -1 )
worst move... I would say any rook pawn move... but that is just me. A3, A4 H3, H4
gutschi
♡ 15 ( +1 | -1 )
well... ... I think the worst bad move is 1. Nf3 if the second move is 2. Ng8 and then 3. Nf3 ... 4. Ng8 and so on... :)
No, joking apart... there's no worst first move... even h4 is possible I think
brobishkin
♡ 26 ( +1 | -1 )
Atrifix... If whites reaction to 1.Nc3 d5 was 2.e4... What would he do if black plays 2. ... d4?... Black still clearly has the initiative and after whites next move (example: 3.Ne2) black can play 3. ... e5 securing a space advantage... So you can see how hard it is to contest the iniative once you've given it away...
Bro...
triangulator
♡ 21 ( +1 | -1 )
gtushi I did not get that we are talkin about first moves for white, and Nf3 is a very solid move! it has been played by GM gery kasparov and I bet you would have a lot of trouble beating someone your level against it
atrifix
myway316
♡ 9 ( +1 | -1 )
Durkin's Attack... ...1.Na3 is a real stinkeroo! While we're on the subject,what's the worst for Black? How about the Fred:1.e4 f5???
brobishkin
♡ 32 ( +1 | -1 )
Atrifix... Point taken... Lets not go to 4. ... exf4 5.Nxf4 Bd6 and so on... Napoleon had success with this opening back in the early 1800's against De Remusat so I do know it's tangable lines of play can develop into such likes as the French, Caro Kann or even the Closed Sicilian... But it's still somewhat unorthidox...
Bro...
premium_steve
♡ 60 ( +1 | -1 )
i've played 1...f5 against e4 just recently in 3- or 5-minute games. i guess it's kind of bad, yeah :).
back to the 1.f3 move for white..... i think it's fun to play f3, and then move the king out on the second move.... it isn't all that bad, and it's fun to see how your opponent reacts (i've only done this against good friends though). i've played f3 followed by Kf2 in blitz and, continuing normally, i've done fine with it against average opponents. i think it would certainly get good laughs as well to make white's position even worse. maybe white's first moves could be f3, Kf2, Kg3, h3, Kh2 or something like that. funny eh? :D
triangulator
♡ 8 ( +1 | -1 )
yes I don't like f5, but e4 e5 nf3 f5 should be considerd I would play that as white or black
pawnstar
♡ 14 ( +1 | -1 )
but... atrifix, if black has achieved equality after 5 moves surely 1.Nc3? is bad.
maca
♡ 19 ( +1 | -1 )
worst move i think 1.a4 would worst, becouse an attemp to get
your rook in game this way would only result to answer 1 - e6 or e7, and rook couldn't come to game... same way works 1.h4
triangulator
♡ 11 ( +1 | -1 )
acually I have played a4 vs a 1700 rated friend ina rated game I won, we played a4 a5, h4 h5- very interesting game
atrifix
♡ 55 ( +1 | -1 )
But ALL openings lead to theoretic equality (except clearly unsound ones like 1. e4 f5, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6, etc.)--the only real considerations are practical chances, not really how many moves it takes for the position to be clearly equal. 1. Nc3 tends to offer less practical chances and lead to situations like a reversed old indian or hungarian defense, so a lot of people avoid it (rightly so).
As for 1. a4, I've seen this played with the idea of transposing to a reversed Budapest with an extra tempo (1. a4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 3. e4), which is at least interesting. 1. h4, intending h4-h5-h6, can be played, but it's probably not entirely sound.
keiserpaul
♡ 94 ( +1 | -1 )
brobishkin The first idea behind 1.Nc3 is to a certain extent related to Alekhine's Defence. The knight is used to lure the pawns so far forward that they become targets of attack or that attacking opportunities occur in the area that is no longer protected by them. The second idea is that it is not only a provocative move, but also a sound developing move. 1.e4 and 1.d4 make development possible, but are not developing moves in themselves. Move likes Nc3 (and Nf3) on the other hand immediately develop a piece. There are other ideas , but I cannot explain them all in detail, I do not want to write a book here. Anyway, saying that 1.Nc3 is given away the initiative is nonsense. Just have a look at game board board #554015. In the first eleven moves, there are 5 Knight moves and 4 Queens move. I think this is plenty of initiative !
brobishkin
♡ 104 ( +1 | -1 )
Nice game... Black obviously errored when playing (5. ... f6) in which you showed after your brilliant Knight sacrifice (opening up the King side attack), but to use this as an example is not the best way to proove a point... Black simply gave you back the initative after his 5th move...
Shall we try a game maybe to discuss or theories?... You as white with 1.Nc3 and me as black playing 1. ... d5... Would love to discuss this move for move...
1.e4 and 1.d4 are developing moves due to the fact of securing central squares and opening up diagonals for the Bishops... Seigbert Tarrasch discribed the developing principle in chess is to maximize the amount of force at your disposal as a combination of force, space, and time... You also want to control as much of the board as possible, so that the enemy has fewer useful posts for his own pieces... Finally, you want to achieve these goals sooner than your opponent, and therefore control the tempo of the game...
Bro...
One more thing to add... Why is it Grandmasters play the undeveloping (as you say) d4 and e4 more often (and a lot more often) than Nc3 and Nf3?... There's a reason...
keiserpaul
♡ 68 ( +1 | -1 )
brobishkin After 4. .. Be6 it's very usefull to play 5. .. f6 , this move is considered in most 1.Nc3 books with an exclamation mark, but I agree Siegbert would have called this an "ugly" move.
You have a point when saying Grandmasters does not play often 1.Nc3. But nevertheless, Ekjebaerg ( I don't know if I spell his name in the right way) won the 10th Correspondence Europe Championship, and he always opened with 1.Nc3. I think it is only the fashion. You cannot say 1.Nc3 and loose, just as you cannot say 1.e4 and win. I think it is more important you are playing an opening that you know thoroughfully and that you trust, than one that is considered to be the best.
Playing it is the best way , so I gladly accept your challenge !
brobishkin
♡ 43 ( +1 | -1 )
Keiserpaul... Like I stated before... There are no absolutes in chess... There are good moves and bad moves... Im not stating the Nc3 is a bad move... Im simply stating that e4, d4, c4, and Nf3 are just slightly and I mean "slightly" better...
Thanks and lets enjoy or game... Im not here to call you stupid or names like a child... I'm here to learn lessons in the game of chess... Wish you the best of moves... I'd wish you luck, but there is no luck in chess...
Bro...